When we experience shame, we sense we are not as we were meant to be. This is a normal feeling and part of the human experience. Shame becomes problematic when we respond as Adam and Eve did, hiding behind fig leaves and thus, hiding from ourselves, each other, and God.
When we experience shame, we sense we are not as we were meant to be. This is a normal feeling and part of the human experience. Shame becomes problematic when we respond as Adam and Eve did, hiding behind fig leaves and thus, hiding from ourselves, each other, and God.
We experience freedom from shame through living in Christ, who loves us and gave Himself for us (Galatians 2:22). Jesus doesn’t cover our sin and shame with better “leaves.” He gives us a new life and a new name. We are no longer slaves and orphans but beloved sons and daughters of God.
Presented by The Austin Stone Institute and Austin Stone Counseling
Episode Transcript | Groups Guide
Recommended Resources
Episode Resources from The Austin Stone Institute
Untangling Emotions, by J. Alasdair Groves and Winston T. Smith
Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy, by Mark Vroegop
Podcast Production Team
Producer & Host: Lindsay Funkhouser
Content Experts: Shanda Anderson, LPC-S; Brittany Beltran, LPC; Andrew Dealy, LPC
Technical Producer: Aaron Campbell
Podcast Art: Stephen Mancha
Podcast Music: Matt Graham
Liturgy Writer: Brittany Beltran
Liturgy Reader: Alex Espinoza
Groups Guide Writer: Erin Feldman
“Shame is something that feels gross and wrong to me. And I tend to not let others even know I feel shame. I'll try to fake it by showing these positive emotions or feelings that just keep hiding who I really am.”
“My default assumption is that I am what is wrong with a difficult situation or strained relationship. I should do better. I should be better.”
“I think the shame spiral is super real. When I start shaming myself for my past, or my weaknesses, or my failures, I can just keep piling on and on, going down, and down, and down into the darkness.”
Lindsay: Welcome to Reframing Emotions, a More To It podcast from The Austin Stone that seeks to help us understand what it means to engage emotions from a biblical foundation and through healthy habits. I'm Lindsay Funkhouser with The Austin Stone Institute. And joining me are my friends and professional counselors Shanda Anderson, Brittany Beltran, and Andrew Dealy. Would y’all introduce yourselves one more time?
Shanda: Hello, I'm Shanda. And it's an honor to be here with you guys. I am the Director of Clinical Care at our Austin Stone Counseling Center. I get to supervise a lot of our LPC associates and again, just get to counsel from a biblical perspective where we value the clinical realities of research and science and all the clinical values that we get from our education, but we get to operate out of a biblical worldview, which Is what we're going to be talking about today.
Brittany: I'm Brittany. I'm an LPC, and I am the Counseling Center Office Associate at The Austin Stone. So I help run the Counseling Center.
Andrew: And I'm Andrew, Executive Director of The Austin Stone Counseling Center, Director of Soul Care for The Austin Stone Community Church, and licensed professional counselor as well.
Lindsay: In our first episode, the three of you helped us get a definition of emotions. We talked about how the Bible looks at emotions, how God has designed us to be emotional people. And that's not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing.
And now we want to start breaking down individual emotions and looking at what they are, how they impact our lives, how we see them in Scripture, how God addressed them, so that we can then begin to change specific perspectives and habits. So today we're going to talk about shame.
So I think it would be helpful again, to have a common definition of shame. So when you're talking about shame in The Austin Stone Counseling Center, what is the definition that you use?
Shanda: Well, one of the most simple ways that I begin to frame up shame is something that I've heard from Ed Welch, but many other counselors from a biblical worldview. And those from a secular perspective.
But we generally categorize shame as a sense of something is wrong with me, that I am bad, I am wrong. Versus a healthy understanding of guilt, where maybe I've done something wrong, and an action or behavior that I could potentially look at to change or, recognize some fault, in that we all have to navigate the rupture and repair of where we err, but shame boomerangs back on our identity.
And we go inward and to this insular place of the core essence of my personhood: I am a mistake. I am bad. I am unlovable. All of those narratives and the scripts that are dehumanizing ourselves and ultimately forgetting how to orient ourselves back to God and a healthy understanding of godly sorrow that helps us see His glory and grace in the midst of our imperfections. And we're all in this journey [of] learning how to navigate that.
Lindsay: So why do you think it is that shame so deeply impacts our identity? What is it that, that causes it to boomerang back so to speak?
Andrew: I think we can look at the inception of shame in Genesis. So if we go back to the fall, Adam and Eve eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which they weren't supposed to do, and we see through their behavior an evidence of what shame naturally does for us.
We see them; they recognize that they're naked and this driving emotive force of, “I need to cover up.” Like, I can feel and sense that me being fully seen and known leaves me vulnerable is dangerous. And so I've gotta hide. I've got to cover up. I've got to only present the parts that are safe and presentable.
And so shame—it's a core visceral feeling. I think it's core to humanity post-fall, because we all get that. We all get this natural sense of we're not quite what we should be. There are certain things that we do that just confuse us of, no, I know the good I should do, but I keep finding myself doing the wrong. And the natural interpretation that will tend to come with shame is, well, I do the wrong because I am fundamentally flawed. I am at my core, deficient, broken. And so that's where it holds us. Now, how we deal with that shame or respond to that shame—we tend to do the same thing that Adam and Eve did as well. Which is we reach for the nearest fig leaves of our own choosing to cover up what we don't want other people to see.
Obviously, the gospel offers us a tremendously different and more effective remedy than that. But the feeling of shame is just, it's an overwhelming visceral, I'm incomplete, lacking, flawed, broken, cannot be fixed. Therefore, instead of trying to fix it, I've got to hide it. I’ve got to conceal it.
Lindsay: That's so good. So you just mentioned the gospel there at the end.
If shame is sort of our old nature, our garden nature, when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of good and evil and experienced everything you just said, is that kind of that identity battling our new nature in Christ, [which is] battling the desires of the old nature showing up?
Andrew: So yeah, the fatally flawed part, the old self versus the new self. I mean, the gospel’s remedy for our shame—because what Adam and Eve did and what we do in all of our sin, there is a fundamental cost and a fundamental breaking, a fundamental marring of the image of God in us that we cannot repair. And so the gospel's offering is much deeper than just covering it up. It’s new life, which moves us into now, the wrestle of, as I'm in 2 Corinthians 5:17, a new creation in Christ. The old has gone, and the new has come. The old self, that fundamentally flawed, broken, buried self has gone. Now the new is here.
Now we find this odd wrestle between the new that is coming and continuing to grow, essentially an influence in our own life, and that old echo of the voice, of what's been buried in Christ. What's actually been put away in Him. And so I think, yeah, the way you're framing it there, it makes a lot of sense.
And that's in many ways, I think the core wrestle of the Christian life is, do we listen to the old voice? You listen to the echo of the self that's been buried with Christ and live out of that voice, which would lead us to shame. Or do we recognize the truth of Christ’s declaration and live out of, He has said you are new. Not just you will be, but now, now you are a new creation, and you're learning to live out of that new creation, which means shame actually no longer really fits, because your identity is secured in Christ. It's been settled in what He has done in his declaration over you. And so the rest of our lives Is that push between the two, because that old voice is persuasive.
Brittany: You know, Scripture tells us that we've been hidden in Christ, so this is our new self. Shame tries to link us to something else, something that's not who Christ is or who we are in Christ. And so that comes at us in a couple of ways, whether it's what we do that tempts us to be linked to this old self that's been buried and is now hidden away. Or it's this, like, hey, someone has done something to me that then links me to something that is again, other than Christ. And so this idea that because of my identity in Christ, I don't have to feel shame about the things that I've done or the things that have been done to me, because neither of them have the final say or the declarative power to determine who I am.
Lindsay: Yeah, that's so good. Because that's the tension we all live in every day, right? That fundamental tension of knowing we've been made a new creation, but feeling in every way possible the brokenness of the world around us, the brokenness of ourselves. How can I recognize shame in myself, whether that's something physical that tends to manifest, or if I'm just again feeling, maybe, guilt and—you articulated [it] really well, Shanda, the difference between guilt and shame. How can we start to recognize if what we're experiencing really is shame?
Shanda: As we begin to answer this question, which is really helpful, I want to add another layer of nuance. I think it is something that we want to approach with a lot of sensitivity, but a lot of confidence as well, [is] that there is a healthy sense of guilt, right?
That, back to our first podcast together, where we don't want to extinguish all the uncomfortable emotional realities. That as we look at recognizing shame, or we look at recognizing where these emotional realities begin to bubble up inside us, that sometimes it it is going to be a conviction or a healthy understanding of where we have transgressed the glory of God or sinned against a brother or sister, or whether the Spirit is just bringing a healthy understanding of where we want to be sanctified. And how to see that as an invitation of grace—we would say a remembering who we are and accepting and inviting that as a way to be united with Christ in His righteousness—that gives me the mirror of His glory to look into and to see my flaws or my imperfections and not be overwhelmed by them, but be open to what God is inviting me into and change in grace as I grow and mature and learn to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel. While also, we want to recognize the enemy who is the great accuser and the deceiver and is firing these arrows and darts at our souls, with the accusations and distortions of our identity. That's where we want to be able to nuance and discern between what type of discomfort in this voice of guilt or that could lead itself into unhelpful shame, because parts of it are beneficial potentially. And so I just want to acknowledge those nuances as we keep having this conversation.
Lindsay: What are some really practical ways I can start to distinguish the difference between that guilt, when that guilt might crossover into shame? Are there questions that are good to ask? Is there a way sometimes it maybe tends to show up in people's bodies, even?
Andrew: So generally shame leads to disconnect. So if I'm in a session with a client, attending to eye contact in particular, like the nonverbals there, the eye contact, body posture leaned in or leaned toward the floor—shame has a physical manifestation that I think most of us can pick up pretty quickly. Where it's—I feel so threatened or I feel so exposed or I feel if I give you this—it's so dangerous that I'm kind of buckling in on myself and withdrawing to protect, because I don't want to be seen, I don't want to be viewed and experienced in that way, because it would be too much. Which is, again, what Adam and Eve did in the covering.
And then the second component, when God shows up in the garden, what do they do? They bury themselves in the bushes. Like they literally try [to] fully disconnect, because they're so ashamed and—which we'll get into another episode here—they're so afraid. There's so much fear. And that fear was in many ways, accurate.
Healthy guilt—so the feeling of I broke a rule—should lead us to just good godly sorrow, good godly repentance, and acknowledgement. It's good for me to feel guilt when I do something God has said, “No, that's not what I designed you for.” That guilt is like, kind of bumpers in the bowling lane that keep me heading in the right direction.
Shame dumps me off in the gutter. Shame kind of removes me from the playing field and moves me into a posture of no, I can't even go to God, because I'm so unvaluable and so broken that nobody could want this in me. They could only want the presentable parts, but not the whole of me. So shame when fully felt will lead us fundamentally away from the gospel, lead us away from moving toward the Lord.
Good, healthy guilt for the believer actually leads us to the only place we can get help: the throne of grace, Hebrews 4:16. That we would approach the throne of grace with confidence that we might receive the mercy and the help that we need when we're struggling. And so guilt should actually prompt us in that direction.
So I'd say generally what I'm looking for in clients [and] in my own life is, are there areas where I'm fully withdrawing, where I find myself pulling away? That’s usually gonna be shame that's motivating that type of disconnect and hide.
Lindsay: Hmm. That's really helpful. So what can we do in that moment? Like, if I noticed that, and I feel myself pulling away, whether it's, I'm still in a room with people, but I, in my head, know that I'm pulling away, or it's I'm actually isolating myself from community. What can you do in that moment when you realize that is happening to take a first step? Is it just stop and pray, talk to the Lord about it? Is it, you reach out to a friend? What is something you can do in that moment?
Shanda: We are very complicated beings. And what I find to be true about myself and about so many people I talk to, we have shame about our shame. When we begin to feel shame, we feel guilty that we feel that way. And then we shame ourselves over feeling shame. And so I think one of the helpful parts about telling the truth about what it is to live as image bearers [in] a broken world is to normalize and validate that this is just part of our experience, of believers, that we do want to hopefully over time reduce.
But my experience of the battle in the spirit and the flesh is that it's going to rear its ugly head. And it is a very common demon as the enemy comes to kill and to steal and destroy—his main way of doing that—or one of his most effective ways of doing that—is this narrative of shame. And the script may look different for everybody, but we all have it to some degree. That's why the fear of man, and the Bible, and the invitation to fear God, and to find ourselves received by Him and connected to Him in the midst of our brokenness is just validating why that's difficult to do, but also normalizing and not being surprised by those unwanted thoughts or ideas or those scripts that have come.
And especially for those who have a history of abuse or trauma, or where somebody has shamed them, especially in their very early developmental years. Some of that script is so embedded. Like, I think we naturally have that from within, of the old self, but then when there's been a human, a person, and if it's been a primary contributor to the influence of who you are in your life, that has offered shaming language. That can be really confusing, to hear the voice of God in the midst of that echo of the old self, but also the echo of harm and unhelpful, where as image bearers, we are meant to reflect the glory of God to each other. And often we don't do that.
And so we have this very innate, deep, longing to be known, to be loved, to be connected, to be seen and, fully in the exposure that we bring of our imperfections, still wanted. And in the brokenness of our human relationships, that is often not our experience. And so we have the playing field that invites this shame to be more frequent and unfortunately rehearsed and reinforced in an unhelpful way by some of our broken relationships.
Andrew: When we recognize what we're feeling is shame, I think there's an immediate opportunity to speak back to it, according to the gospel. Really, my humble opinion here, the only way for that to actually happen—apart from the Holy Spirit just showing up and doing something crazy—is that the practice and rehearsal of the truths of God, more than the critical voice in my own head, the rehearsal of over and over again, God calls me His child. God calls me valuable because I am His. God calls me righteous because of what Christ has done. God tells me the old is dead and buried. Your sin is paid for, your sin cannot tell you who you are any longer. That I have to rehearse that before the moments of shame come if I'm really going to stand a chance. Because shame again is so visceral [that] when it hits, it's hard to push back that tidal wave if we've not been preparing for it, if we've not been actively rehearsing in our mind. And then in our emotions, no, this is how God feels about me. God never tells me, “Get away from me.” God says, “Draw near.” The voice that's screaming at me, “Run away from God or run away from others”— that's not the voice that I need to be attending to right now.
I need to attend to know God says because of Christ, I am welcome here. Because of Christ, draw [near] to the throne of grace, meet with Him there. And so I think apart from practicing those things, we'll have a very difficult time when shame hits [of] not just hitting the road and hiding.
And sometimes we will do that again. I would say there's no shame in that, to [feel] shame once again. There's no shame when we find ourselves that we've hidden, like we've recoiled away. And then we become aware in that moment: “Oh. What I allowed to shape my experience right now was not the truths of God. I've been listening to the old self. I've been letting the enemy kind of poke me on this. And because of that, my behavior followed that path.” Even there, we can go, “Okay, Lord, thank You that I don't have to live there anymore. Like, I can see now, next time, this is what I hope to see.” Change in that. We're gonna have to rep that a number of times to find the freedom in the moment. Especially in high pressure and shame-filled moments to still be okay, to stay and remain.
Lindsay: It's so encouraging to hear you talk about. Even if I'm feeling shame and running from my shame, God doesn't run from us. He always invites us in. And so even in those moments, when that visceral shame feeling is hitting so hard, having those Scriptures that have come to mind, hopefully our faith having been built up, our identity, having been reminded I still don't have to fear, because God is with me, even if I don't feel Him. Right?
And I think, as someone who experiences shame—and it does feel very visceral— just that little reminder, if that's all the truth I can cling to in the moment is so much, it's so much to remind me of the new identity I have in the acceptance I have in Christ.
Andrew, I think it was you when you first mentioned Adam and Eve in the garden and talked about shame being scary because of vulnerability. Vulnerability is scary. Vulnerability is something that we call one another to in community as believers, right? It's me being honest and forthright with you about my sin or what I'm struggling with, or what's hard so that you can encourage me and correct me and love me and pray for me.
And that healthy vulnerability is such an important part of the Christian life. So can you all talk a little bit about the difference between unhealthy vulnerability or the kind of vulnerability we feel when we feel shame, when we want to be like Adam and Eve and cover ourselves and hide in the bushes, versus the healthy vulnerability that we want to have as a community of believers?
Andrew: I think it's difficult because vulnerability I'd say, more often than not, at least at the beginning, feels terrible, because we feel like we're kind of taking our armor off and saying, “I'm going to allow you to see and in, so doing, I'm going to allow you the potential to do more damage than if I just kept myself kind of armored up. And I'm only going to let you see the components of my life that feel safe.”
So it'd be hard to tell, like, what vulnerability is healthy in the moment. So I think from a biblical perspective, we have the freedom to be unendingly vulnerable, knowing that human beings could do nothing to us that could rob us of dignity. That could [take] away from our God-given image-bearing nature of Him. They can't touch that. The same way that now in Christ, our sin cannot touch or break that, like, it's sealed in Christ. And so there's a kind of a crazy vulnerability that we're offered in, well, we don't have to be afraid of any human being or anybody's response.
Now that's not to say, though, if we're vulnerable in a group and their responses are, you know, they're grossed out by our vulnerability, that's going to hurt. But I think there's a compassion that can dwell within us that recognizes, oh, their bad response to that is likely rooted in their own shame, fear, need to hide.
But my validation in my vulnerability, my being able to share that and not feel fearful is because I know what God says about me. And so I say in most cases, though, where we share vulnerably in a healthy way, it leads to depth and intimacy. As we share more of ourselves, we feel more known.
And so that is the path to a deeper community. Community is always going to have good responses and bad responses. So we gotta be ready for both. ‘Cause where humans are involved, we tend to mess things up, and sometimes we do really great things.
And so I'd say generally, vulnerability is a healthy thing. It's good to calibrate based on who you're sharing with and ask yourself, Hey, is this the right time? Is this a helpful environment? Is my motivation for sharing this vulnerability to encourage or help or connect? Or is my sharing of this vulnerability, you know, some sort of one-upmanship, I'm going to make my vulnerability bigger than yours?
And then to be ready if I share with other people the thing I'm ashamed of, I need to be ready. They might not know how to respond. And I can't get from them what only God can give to me. I can't go to them to get the fix. Only God can give that to me, but I can hope to see an echo of it in their response. I can hope that their response will look like and remind me of what God has already declared is true.
Shanda: I think it's good to remember that it can often be very scary to move toward vulnerability if that's not something you've practiced or had somebody safe to meet you in it. And sometimes we'll find ourselves in relationships with people who are on wobbly, shaky ground moving in that direction, because it's a big risk. And ultimately it's facing a big fear of being known and then being rejected, because when there's a history of being rejected or abandoned or unwanted—that's a big hurdle to jump over, to connect that security to God and to others when we're living out of the truth of who we are in Christ, ‘cause there are those real wounds and pains, and sometimes those narratives can just be really deeply ingrained.
And so I would say just a lot of patience and sensitivity when people might stumble their way forward through vulnerability. And the more that we can practice that for those who have encountered facing those fears and walked on more solid ground of confidence in that anchoring of who we are in Christ—that we would model that, that we would invite that, that we would create atmospheres where that is experienced. So that those who have a deficit in some of that confidence and security to move toward being naked and unashamed, you know, as pre-fall and Genesis 3, where post-fall, it is disconnect and withdrawal from God and from others. And we're trying to help people move back toward ultimately that vertical connection with God so that they can do the scary work of connecting to people in the horizontal relationships where life is lived out.
Lindsay: I think that's such a beautiful thing when healthy vulnerability is modeled, and then it leads us to freedom, and then it leads us all to knowing and loving God more and knowing how to pray and support one another. especially in such a powerful emotion like shame.
Brittany: I mean, I think with walking alongside others who are dealing with shame, a lot of long-term patience, like, ‘cause it takes time to rehearse those new narratives and to learn the voice of your loving Father, as opposed to the voice of accusation and deception that tries to chime in. And so when we're considering what it's like to do that in a group setting, that's complicated ‘cause everyone is experiencing a million different things at the same time.
And so learning to share vulnerably takes practice. It takes risk, it takes patience and receptivity and humility from everyone in the room. And then I think there's this tendency, especially when you're, like, really deep in shame, to share vulnerably but not really share yourself. There's a way in which we can share that is very self-protective, that gives us the, like, air of sharing but isn't actually vulnerable or authentic at all. Not at all, but not to the degree to where you can actually allow someone to enter into it, because it's really scary. So. It takes practice and time, and then understanding what are those situations that tend to breed shame for you? What are those spaces or those places or those ideas that make it hard to connect with others? Because shame is so isolating. And if we can kind of allow a little bit of space over time, we can learn to love one another better.
Lindsay: And so that practicing, Brittany, is that just getting with a trusted friend or somebody beforehand and them being the safe space to work those things out? Or them helping you notice some of those cues, or maybe being willing to ask questions to say, “Hey, you shared that with me, thank you so much, was that really the true story? Was there more to that story?” Is it practicing those things with someone safe ahead of time to be ready for those situations? Or how can we approach working out that vulnerability, if we're afraid to really be authentically vulnerable? Do you have anything that you do with clients or any suggestions?
Brittany: Well, I think there are two different things that you're talking about. One is, hey, what do you do as the individual who's experiencing the shame? And then the other one is, what do you do as the individual who's kind of picking up on there's something going on here? I don't quite understand, for the individual who's experiencing a disconnect and an inability to kind of get out of that.
It goes back to habit and formation. If I'm rehearsing the narrative over and over and reading every situation as a declaration that I am bad, or I am unworthy of connection or unworthy [of] relationship or unwanted. Those narratives can come pretty quickly. And if we lean into those, we're cultivating more shame and making it harder.
So I would say first, the individual has to start to gain an awareness of, hey, am I listening to the voice of my loving Father or am I not? Alongside community, helping them repeat and echo back to them, hey, this is what the Lord says about you. This is what's true of you.
Brittany: These are the things that are good and valuable and beautiful about you that have nothing to do with even what you do, but who you are. And so as for the first one who is seeing it, I think it's going to be an interesting dynamic, because if you point it out, right, we feel shame about shame.
And so it's going to depend a lot on your relationship and also, kind of, what's going to be a healthy risk for you. But if you see it, if you have the proximity of relationship, and you can see it, I think it's worth saying as a way of loving and inviting, hey, I'd love to know what's going on. I don't know what's going on. So not assuming you know exactly what their body's telling you. But being curious if, hey, I noticed when I said this, this has happened—can you let me know what was going on for you?
Lindsay: I love that posture, being humble enough to ask questions and not just assume we're reading the situation accurately because we very well may not be.
Shanda: One of the most valuable traits of the Christian life is humility. And humility is like healthy vulnerability without shame, you know, moving toward being able to consider others better than ourselves without feeling inferior. And I think it's back to this healthy understanding of who we are in Christ so that we don't diminish our value and think less of ourselves, but we don't escalate our grandiosity, think more highly of ourselves. But we think accurately about ourselves, based on who God has declared us to be.
And then we move slowly, over time, into the sanctification of learning to live out of our identity that is so securely anchored and rooted and grounded and established in Christ that helps us do this work, being honest about what it is to be human. And I think we have a hard time doing that. We're tempted to believe that, again, we would be rejected. And the reality is, sometimes we have been honest, and there has been a brokenness to a relationship or a fracture that has happened that makes it more difficult to live out of that accurate sense of self and humility when, as human relationships do, we wound each other deeply. And so one of the things that I think could be helpful for somebody who's trying to practice these things is to implement a strategy of awareness first, but also being able to say, I'm tempted to believe this is the narrative that's popping up and to slow down enough to at least doubt your initial response.
Like, not that you don't trust everything that you feel but that there's a questioning of, I wonder if I could be misinterpreting this? I wonder if I'm curious about, [if] I'm noticing that this narrative is shaping how I'm responding. I wonder if that's an accurate reality. Am I receiving the message as it was intended? Or could I be distorting it a little bit? Could it be clouded by or colored by my insecurities and my fears that are coming up right now?
And so partly, I think there's just a recognition that any healthy believer or human is going to, I think, acknowledge that a part of our daily experience is recognizing where the narratives that are coming in could be informed by or influenced by something other than the truth and wisdom of God, so that we can then, potentially, in a healthy relationship and in a place where we feel like we could be received, say, “Hey, this is what I'm thinking. I want to revisit this comment that you made so that I can maybe interact with it differently in case I'm receiving it in a way that it really wasn't meant to be given.”
And if we could practice giving each other space for that, if we could create margin in those conversations, where if, by God's grace, we could recognize some of the potential narratives that are creeping in, those shame scripts that are filtering what we’re interacting with somebody about, and then be able to correct that gently. That’s a big risk that it's more vulnerability in that moment that can lead to, “Oh, thank you for letting me revisit that comment. Because this is actually what I was hoping you would hear by that.” So that's one thing.
And then I've had a client that even earlier today, it was offering an illustration that I think is helpful. ‘Cause we're talking about trust. We're talking about building a relationship of trust. And again, where there's a history of where that trust has been broken severely or harmed in a deep and really intimate way, then moving toward trust can be difficult.
But when we're talking about there are ways to do that—I think slowly, and gradually, and healthily over time. Meaning, that if we meet a stranger, we might talk to them on the sidewalk and say, “Hi, how are you doing? My name's Shanda. What's your name?” But as we build a relationship with somebody who might say, “Hey, why don't you come onto my porch and have a seat? Let's talk here on my porch.” And then as we get to know them, and those moments feel good and healthy, and the reactions and responses and the way that relationship is stewarded, then, “Why don't you come into my living room, have a seat. You know, here's some coffee, let's have dinner. You know, let's move to the kitchen and go to the dinner table, and let's keep talking and sharing and exposing these scary parts of me.” And see how somebody is going to interact with that.
And then there are very few people in our lives, they get access to our closet. You know, where it's like, you shut the door and—we don't even like going there a lot of the time. So when I think we've got to go there with God and with the trusted people in our lives who have earned that, I think evidence, of being able to reflect God's glory helpfully and rightly and as consistent as any human can, I think we want to bring out those parts that we like to shut the door [on] and ignore and avoid talking about so that we can bring the story that God has written, even the painful parts. Because that's where the healing and the help and the being known and loved and that sense of belonging and that relational connectivity that we all crave can be found.
Andrew: I think when we think about dealing with shame, keeping in mind and rehearsing God's initial response to Adam and Eve can be really helpful. Because God called out to them. It's not that He didn't know where they were. It's not that He didn't know what had happened. But as Adam and Eve were literally covering themselves with fig leaves, diving in the bushes, trying to hide from their creator, God's step toward them in their shame is to call them out. To call, “Where are you?” To invite them into relationship.
And again, this was God not shunning them. This is actually God drawing near. Which in many cases, as we deal with shame in our lives, or we deal with shame in other people's lives, what can be most helpful is this loving pursuit, this loving drawing near. As God calls out to them, as they draw near, as Adam and Eve blame shift and still try to hide, through their words and through blaming each other for what has happened, God speaks truth: “This is what has happened. These are the consequences, because of what you have done.” And He's very truthful with them in that moment.
And then as He moves to take them out of the garden of Eden, we see this moment where God now provides a new covering for them. As we think about this moment for Adam and Eve, for them to receive the right covering, to receive God's provision.
And again, you could go through Genesis 3, and you're going to see at no point in time does God say, “Adam and Eve, this is how you're going to fix it. This is what you have to do to make it better.” But rather it's God saying, “This is what's going to happen because of what you've done. And now this is how I am going to bring healing for it.”
God offers them the animal skins. That blood was shed to make these animals skins to give to Adam and Eve their proper covering. That was an echo of what Christ would do in the future. Adam and Eve had to take off their version of covering. They had to let go of their self-protective version of keeping myself safe and receive [God’s covering].
Andrew: But think about what this felt like. To be fully exposed before God and realize His response to them was still [to] draw further near. Draw closer to them and give them more of what they need, not to distance Himself. And so I think as we dwell on that, as we wrestle with our own shame, to keep in mind [our] shame makes us want to run away. God's invitation is consistently, draw near.
I think the other Scripture that comes to mind is the prodigal son, as another, just, remarkable picture of God's loving response to us in our most shameful moments. This prodigal son who has gone off and spent all of his father's fortune is coming home, recognizing what he has done was horrible, [and] practicing his “I'm sorry” speech on the way home.
And what he finds is his father runs to him, embraces him in his filth, and then surrounds him with the reminders of “Son, this is who you are. You're not what you have done, and what you have wasted doesn't tell you who you are. You are my son, and there's nothing you can do to change that. So I'm going to wrap you in the cloak. I'm going to put the ring on the finger. I'm going to give you shoes and remind you this is who you are.”
Again, we see that in Genesis and God's response to Adam and Eve. I think we see it in the prodigal son. If that's the image we have of God in our shame, then I think it's perhaps easier to draw near.
It's easier to go: “That's what I need. I need somebody to tell me, no, you misunderstand yourself.” You need God to speak into your life. This is actually who I've made you to be. This is actually who I've declared you to be, and you don't get to change that. You’re mine. And that's where I think shame falls apart. When we can hear that. And dwell there.
Lindsay: So let me ask this, a connected idea, but perhaps distinctly different than what we've just been talking about with our biblical understanding of shame. What's the current cultural narrative of shame and how is that different? How might that be impacting our understanding of shame?
Andrew: Cultural response to shame—I think predominantly has been to make everything okay in the hopes that will somehow make shame disappear. And so I really think you see remarkably Romans 1 playing out. It's like, we now take everything that God has said is bad and wrong, and if we can just flip it on its head and say it's good, then shame will progressively get out of the picture. Shocker, it's not working; our best efforts to de-shame everything, to be tolerant of everything, except [that] has not done anything to help us get away from the felt experience of shame or our culture to deescalate shame in any way. If anything, we're more fragile, more anxious, more fearful, and more shame-filled than we've ever been.
And our meager attempts to try and fill that chasm of a hole within ourselves with our new version of what's right, and okay. the culture continues to find that [is] not enough. I think the culture's remedy is exposed for what it is. It's just the new fig leaf. The new fig leaf is reaching for the new version of describing yourself, identifying yourself, backing up your reputation, saying, “No, this makes me enough.” And now I need the world to bend to me, and it just doesn't work. We can still feel that gnawing. There's something still off there that's only remedied in the perfect covering of Christ and through what He has done for us.
Lindsay: So as a way to push back against that false cultural narrative of shame to be the ones that lead out in humility and wise and safe vulnerability and giving others the benefit of the doubt, considering them more important than ourselves, and having that humble posture that Christ always showed to the world instead of bowing up or defending ourselves. It’s not being afraid to admit that we're wrong, not being afraid of what we're feeling and just to, in humility, engage with others. Am I on the right track there? Or is there a better way to engage with that cultural narrative and fight back against that?
Andrew: I think that's without a doubt a component to fighting shame—open, honest vulnerability, a lack of defensiveness because Christ is our refuge, He's our defender. We don't have to defend ourselves. And acknowledgement [of] we get stuff wrong. Absolutely. While also holding the firm backbone of the truths of Scripture that there are certain things that are just clear and true. In other words, we can't pat sin on the head and declare it okay and get rid of shame. That we're still gonna have to hold spaces where there are certain things that God has said, “This is not good.”
But I think that posture, in terms of engaging the culture, it can be refreshing. And it's perhaps an area that we've not done great at. That we felt the need to speak harshly or, to not, you know, second Corinthians 5:16, which says we regard no one according to the flesh any longer than we used to regard Christ in this way, we regard Him thus no longer. That we're tempted to see everybody according to the flesh instead of seeing them with the eyes toward second Corinthians 5:17. That they [are] new creations in Christ, they have inherent dignity. To see them as God sees them and respond in that way.
Then maybe, even, to draw back into how God responded to Adam and Eve in their shameful moments. To draw near, to be patient, and yet to still speak truth in that context is still [to] speak truth, of what God has said is as good and right. But yeah, Lindsay, I think that posture piece, that humble posture and that willingness to share, “Hey, we don't have, we don't have everything figured out. We've got lots that is still broken.” I think [that] cultivates trust and cultivates a space to be able to have those conversations.
Shanda: And I think remembering the God of the garden was relational. We see in Genesis 1 that God is Elohim. And He’s this powerful creator. But in Genesis 2 and 3 he's Yahweh. He’s this personal God, walking with Adam and Eve in the cool of the day.
And He’s in fellowship with them. He's personally and intimately acquainted with them. And that is true, before sin. And God doesn't change even when we transgress. And that it's true after sin—that in the midst of shame He does what Andrew has mentioned, just pursues relational connection. And then He does the covering that we can't do on our own.
‘Cause I think shame is admitting that we can't cover over, like, ultimately our transgressions, our sin that requires something outside of us to bring ultimate value and dignity and worth. And that has been given freely in Christ. And so I think that is the foundation of any relationship that's going to be fighting against shame. And inviting that walk of faith and the sanctifying work of the Spirit to help us not grow weary in doing good, while we orient ourselves rightly back to God over and over and over again.
And where there are two people doing that or more, then we can build that intimacy ultimately with God vertically and then with others, being able to admit our flaws and not feel like we have to run and hide. We don't have to avoid or come trembling in anxiousness. We can rightly view ourselves, as God has declared us to be complete in Christ, and be able to accept responsibility for the things that we may have done to hurt others. Or the things that we have done to sin against God.
But that is ultimately inviting us into deeper fellowship with God. It is deeper fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ, in relationships that have been able to learn to do that are the ones that are most securely attached and enjoyed. And aren't vacillating as much, even though we all do it a little bit, but we don't fall in that ditch of hiding or defending and the self-preservation that shame tells us to do.
Andrew: I think what Shanda's hitting on there is so important, at least, particularly on this one point post-fall. Apart from shame, we will not get to the conclusion we need God. Apart from the felt experience that I'm so fundamentally flawed, I cannot fix myself, we will not come to the right conclusion that I need something more than myself to be okay. I need something bigger than myself to heal this wound of shame that I feel within me. In other words, shame post-fall is one of the most helpful negative emotions in terms of getting us to a place of recognizing what Christ has done is incomparably important.
For us [shame] is the only answer [that] removes the self-sufficiency, removes the idea of, no, I could somehow just put leaves over this and make it work. We feel this now; there's something beyond us. And so that's something within the culture that we actually at times are going to amplify—as crazy as that sounds coming from a counselor—the feeling of shame to get to the right conclusion.
That that shame is actually telling you, you need something more than you can offer yourself. And that's a right conclusion to get to, though painful. That leads to the greatest joy, which has been provided and Christ has done it. Therefore, your shame leads you, actually, if we allow it to, to the throne of grace that we need.
Lindsay: That's so freeing, the way that you both set that up, because the enemy tells us through shame, we need to fix it ourselves. But inherently, we were never created to do that. So that's such a powerful narrative from him that you have to fix yourself, knowing that can never happen.
But what you're both bringing in from Scripture—all these truths where God is showing us not only is it not your responsibility to fix yourself, it is His joy to give us new life in Christ and to help us have even strong feelings, like shame, lead us closer to Him, lead us to better and more intimate, healthy connection with other believers as we all seek to look more like Jesus every day.
If I'm sitting here, I've listened to everything that you've shared; I've listened to this podcast. I'm learning new things about shame. I'm trying to figure out what it looks like in my life. What are two things I can do today to begin living in the kind of life that you've both talked about?
Andrew: The practical one that comes to mind right now that I think can be really helpful is the process of starting to diagnose it, if we'd be willing to spend time and dwell on [it]. And if we would dare to write down what are the things that I'm withholding from others that I feel, if I shared it, I would lose a relationship, I would lose a reputation, or would disconnect me from community? And to not go tell somebody immediately, I mean, if you want, you can try that out. I don't know that that would go well. But to take some time and talk to the Lord about it, because I think it's helpful for us to come into the manifest experience of realizing He already knows, just as he called Adam and Eve and He already knew. He already knows with us, as well.
And so the safest place for us to go with the things that we feel, like, are unacceptable anywhere, is to the one who already knows and still says, “I see you. I love you.” And for us to try and help our heart feel that. That, “God, oh, You do see. My pretending to hide in the bushes is a joke. You have seen it. You've known. It's not hidden. Would You help my heart start to experience that?”
As we start to experience that freedom, the one who created us knows, sees, and still loves. Then I think we can really start to explore, “Okay, Lord, how might You use this to deepen relationships? How might you use this to help me grow in courage and faith and loving others?”
Even through my weakness, because the body of Christ needs our weaknesses as much as our strengths, the body of Christ grows as much from our weaknesses as it does the gifts of strength that we can give to it. And so that'd be my two recommendations.
Shanda: Yeah. I love that. And I would only add that in that time of, I think, reflective honesty. ‘Cause we have to be honest with ourselves first to be able to let God or others meet us there. So I think there's a willingness to examine our hearts and not be afraid of what God might reveal and to write down what those scripts are with those narratives that bubble up so easily, to identify [them]. ‘Cause generally speaking, I would say most of us have, like, for sure one, most likely two, main scripts that haunt us and that are the kind of Achilles heel that hijack our identity, confidence.
And usually there's a wound behind that or an experience that has shaped that. And so I think being able to just really recognize and be honest about that, that fiery dart of the enemy. Just the annoying, recurring narrative that is where we're tempted to buy into the deceptive lie and then withdraw and hide and make coverings of our own. ‘Cause the more that we have the ability to tell the truth, again, about the pain of our story and about the grace of God that meets us in the midst of our pain and let Him come in and bind up that brokenness and set the captive free and turn the ashes into beauty slowly over time. We want to be able to name those distorted messages that are creeping in and enticing us over into the old self.
And so, I think, to really be curious about and observe and recognize what those narratives are. Pay attention to those. Don't be afraid of them; don't feel like you need to, again, fix them. I think it's just having that recognition so that you can even know what it looks like to go to God, like Andrew's saying, and find where the truth meets you there. And then be honest about how easy it is to exchange the glory of God for a lie.
It's the work of the sanctifying, grace of the Spirit that we exchange the lie for the glory and truth of God. We want to go back to that rightful orientation, and we've got to know what that lie is; we've got to know what that deceptive narrative is so that we can look to the truth to then rightly inform us. And that the truth brings the freedom so that we can stand up under those accusations and say, “That’s not true.” And so I hope that we can continue to help each other do that.
Lindsay: Thank you all so much for what you've shared today about shame. I am trusting the Holy Spirit to work in us, to help us move forward in freedom and [our] secure identity in Christ.
Thank you so much for joining us today. We encourage you to go to our episode webpage. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can go directly to austinstone.org. There you'll be able to access a group guide that will help you continue to process what you've learned today, both individually and communally. That group guide has Scripture reflection, questions, discussion questions, and a copy of our liturgy. Next week, we'll talk about fear—what it is, what it does in us, and how it impacts our relationships.
And as always, we end each episode with a liturgy reading. And so if you just want to sit for a minute and have someone else speak words of truth over you, if you just need words to communicate to God in worship based on what you've learned today, we have that for you. We'll see you next time!
Alex: A Liturgy for the Lifting of Shame
My body trembles,
Mind races.
Accusations tightening—
Swirling—
Lesser.
I swallow hard to push away
The evidence of my undoing.
Innocent trust, displaced by unintended knowledge.
My nakedness
Seen and longing to be unseen—
Flesh now flushed,
Hastily concealed,
By the work of my hands. My soul weeps.
Where can I go?
To where can I carry my disgrace?
Shame hides every path.
Tear-soaked hands cradle my shrinking frame.
A familiar voice rises,
And my downcast head shifts—
“Where are you?”
A once-welcomed phrase,
Imbued now with dread.
Heart pulsing, gaze averted,
Quick-paced response, the inner cry—
Hide.
Your greeting gaze,
a piercing invitation.
As You gently lift my head,
Reminding me, that You, oh Lord,
Have borne my shame,
And been humiliated in my stead.